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The year started with the door of an airplane falling off mid-flight. Frustrations with air travel have mounted since then. It’s up to Pete Buttigieg, the Transportation Secretary, to address those problems — which include everything from Boeing’s woes to the shrinking value of airline loyalty points.
Buttigieg joined the Big Take DC podcast in an exclusive interview to talk about the future of air travel, and his political future after his tenure in the Biden administration ends.
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Here is a lightly edited transcript of the conversation:
Saleha Mohsin: It's 2024, a year that started badly for air travel. It began with the door of an airplane falling off and enters its last months with two astronauts stranded in space – because of issues with a Boeing spacecraft.
One man who's trying to target these problems — and weigh in on the fraught politics of the moment: Pete Buttigieg, the US Transportation Secretary.
He first captured national attention in 2019, when he made a surprising play for the Democratic presidential nomination.
Pete Buttigieg: My name is Pete Buttigieg. They call me Mayor Pete…
Mohsin: He was a 30-something, openly gay mayor of the mid-sized city of South Bend, Indiana.
Buttigieg: …And I am running for president of the United States…
Mohsin: He stunned the nation by winning the Iowa caucuses, beating out Joe Biden, and he ultimately landed a role in Biden’s Cabinet.
As Transportation Secretary, he has the tough job of getting our national transportation system in check. In the last couple of years, that’s meant refereeing battles between airlines and consumers – over everything from in-flight safety to the value of loyalty programs.
Now just 42 years old in an increasingly aging government, Buttigieg has a long career ahead of him in politics – if he wants it.And even from his perch running DOT – which is usually a low-profile job – he hasn’t shied away from what’s happening in national politics. Kamala Harris's team vetted him as a possible vice presidential candidate and he’s gone viral for his lively debates with anchors on Fox News.
I talked with Buttigieg earlier today, Thursday, September 12, about the future of his party and how he’s setting out to address the many challenges of modern air travel.
Mohsin: Wonderful to have you on Secretary Buttigieg.
Buttigieg: Glad to be with you.
Mohsin: Only a minute late. My last commercial flight, I think departed 30 minutes late.
Buttigieg: I'm glad we're doing better than your last flight.
From Bloomberg’s Washington bureau, this is the Big Take DC podcast. I’m Saleha Mohsin.
Mohsin: So I want to start by asking you about one of the most high profile challenges that your Transportation department has faced, making airlines consumer friendly.
We've seen Boeing under scrutiny for some major safety issues with its 737 MAX consumer jets. There are delays and doors literally falling off of airplanes. So I do have to ask you, do you enjoy flying commercial?
Buttigieg: Uh, mostly, I think we've all had our headaches. I am on an airliner maybe not every day, but almost. And like millions of Americans experience the benefits, but also the huge frustrations that go with air travel.
We've worked hard to establish America's safety record that has made air travel the safest way to get around. We work hard to keep it that way and press the airlines to do their part. Uh, and then there's the customer service side, where it's clear that airlines need to do a better job of taking care of passengers, and we have not just pressed them and encouraged them to improve their performance, but introduced new passenger rights that have created protections that didn't exist just a few years ago and that we think are much needed and overdue.
Mohsin: So I'm from Ohio. I live in Washington, D.C. So like a lot of Americans, I'm going to be flying to see family in Ohio this holiday season and I do have to tell you, I'm dreading it.
What is the Transportation Department under Secretary Pete Buttigieg doing to make holiday travel a little less frustrating this year?
Buttigieg: Well, the first thing we've done is press the airlines to improve their performance. It's one of the reasons why last year saw the lowest rate of flight cancellations in about a decade, and we're working to make sure that through things like realistic scheduling and adequate staffing, they build on improving that record.
The other thing that's important is that they take care of passengers when there is a delay or an issue. One of the things we've done is introduce a new tool, flightrights.gov. It's got airline by airline information about what you can expect your airline to do to take care of you when you have a problem. And those are customer service promises that we enforce and hold them accountable for meeting.
We've also taken action to increase the benefits that go back to a customer when there's an issue, for example, automatic refunds when your flight is canceled, something that has been a real headache and led to us.
Imposing hefty penalties on airlines that weren't following through. We're trying to take the drama out of that by saying that you don't even have to ask to get a refund.
And lastly, a lot of enforcement. We have issued the toughest enforcement actions in the history of the department in cases like that of Southwest Airlines that melted down almost two winters ago now and left so many passengers stranded. We're investigating what happened with Delta over the summer right now.
Mohsin: So this holiday season, November and December, can consumers expect that some of these things are already in play? We can expect that we can sit with our family members as Joe Biden promised, we can expect that we can get refunds the way you're describing?
Buttigieg: As a passenger today, you have protections that you did not have a year ago or two years ago or more, and we're going to continue building on those.
So yes, if you're heading to see family for the holidays, for example, those automatic refund protections are the law of the land now. And if you don't get treated that way, let us know because we'll follow up with enforcement.
We have seen more airlines comply with what we've been asking them to do with regard to family seating and for passengers who are wheelchair users. Now we've been acting to make sure that they have a better experience because some of the stories we've heard about what they have faced traveling on on airlines are just completely unacceptable, and we're developing rules that would change that experience and empower those passengers significantly.
Mohsin: You're talking about enforcement and penalties is one aspect there. Are you thinking millions of dollars? How high a penalty are you willing to levy on these airlines?
Buttigieg: Well, in the case of Southwest, it was a $140 million enforcement action, which was more than we had seen in a decade or more put together before that, partly because we thought it was very important to send a message to airlines.
What we saw was that some of the past levels of penalties—a million here, two million there—really wasn't enough to change behavior. Um, and we're going to continue to be ready to do that.
Now, one thing I want to mention is when we talk about 140 million, that's not all cash going back to the Treasury. We did impose a cash fine of about $35 million, but part of what we did in the enforcement order was have the majority of those dollars actually go back to passengers in the form of vouchers, compensation and other things that went back to the consumer because the whole point of this, of course, is to make sure consumers are better taken care of.
Mohsin: I want to talk about Boeing. What have you been able to do to get that company back on track?
Buttigieg: Well, FAA took an unprecedented measure in restricting Boeing's ability to produce aircraft at a higher rate until they demonstrated, uh, the safety of, uh, their production and the quality of their production process.
Aviation in America by far the safest way to travel and has made the last decade or two, the safest period in the history of aviation. That means that when there is a near miss or an incident, something like the plug door blowing out in January in Alaska, we treat that as seriously as the FAA used to treat the most recent fatal crash. I think that's part of why they have been able to say that there has not been a fatal airliner crash in years. And again, it takes a lot of work to keep it that way.
Boeing was put on notice that they were under a microscope. They've provided an updated plan, and now we are watching to see how they're doing at meeting the terms of that plan. They also have new leadership, and I've conveyed to Boeing the importance of them prioritizing a culture of quality and safety so that they can meet the FAA's expectations, and really the expectations of the American public.
Mohsin: I asked Secretary Buttigieg about a new investigation into airline loyalty programs… and we discussed the future of the Democratic Party and where he might fit into it. That’s after the break…
I had a chance to sit down with Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg. We talked about air travel and all that comes with it….
Mohsin: There's another place where trust in air travel is really low right now, since we're talking about trust. I'm talking about pricing and rewards transparency. So, what it actually costs to take the trip that you've planned and the value of the loyalty points that you've signed up to get.
One example that you guys have been working on at the department is a lot of work on junk fees. The fees that are not disclosed up front when you're buying the ticket, like checking a bag, things like that. Share a little bit about what you're doing on that front with consumer protections.
Buttigieg: Well, when it comes to fees, first of all, we're making sure that you get refunded if you don't get what you paid for on your fees, same as we do on your ticket. So you pay for WiFi, the WiFi doesn't work, you gotta get your money back. Same with baggage. If you don't get the baggage services you paid for, and we have a new rule that's requiring that.
We have another rule about transparency. And this is really about making sure that you can tell when you're comparison shopping for an airfare, the all-in cost of the ticket that you're buying, including those ancillary fees for bags or picking a seat or something like that.
Now, I thought that uh, being transparent about fees was a relatively low bar, uh, to require the airlines to meet. But when we finalized that as a rule, the airline industry lobby responded by suing us.
Uh, we believe that our rule is based on strong legal authority, so we're standing our ground. Uh, but it's disappointing that they were so reluctant to do something. I think most consumers would expect of anybody selling anything, which is to be upfront and transparent about what you're going to charge.
Mohsin: Let's talk about the rewards points more specifically. You launched an investigation on frequent-flyer programs.
Americans actually love these kinds of programs, decide on which credit card to sign up for based on this. Tell me why you are taking these programs on.
Buttigieg: Well, these programs are very important to Americans. That's exactly why we want to look into them to make sure that they are fair, transparent and predictable.
There's real value in these rewards balances. I think a lot of us think of our points and miles as part of our savings. But unlike savings in cash in a bank account, the value of your points and miles could be changed arbitrarily by the airline that controls them.
And so we want a better sense of how airlines manage and maintain the value of these points and miles, uh, when there are situations where they are being devalued, uh, what's behind that. Uh, and making sure that there's a level of transparency and fairness because again, you know, you got, uh, folks who decide which airline to take sometimes pay more for a ticket in order to have it be on their preferred airline because of the mileage program.
Uh, some, uh, consumers are not just choosing a certain credit card, but choosing a credit card with a higher annual fee. And a higher interest rate, which is a choice that could affect them to the tune of hundreds or thousands of dollars, just based on these points and miles. If, if there, if a consumer is putting that much stock in the points and miles, we want to make sure that they're getting what they were promised.
Mohsin: So what can the Transportation department do once the investigation is done? Are penalties a factor there?
Buttigieg: Well, I don't want to prejudge what might come of the investigation because we've just launched it, but what we've requested the four largest airlines to do is provide thorough data about how they value these points and how customers could be affected by decisions that they make.
And we do have an authority and therefore, in my opinion, a responsibility under the law to address any unfair or deceptive or anti-competitive practices that may be out there. If we find such practices, we're going to take action.
Mohsin: Let's talk briefly about infrastructure money. Are you worried about getting that money out the door so that it can be spent on projects, especially because we might have a Trump administration coming up?
Buttigieg: Well, we're certainly working to make sure that these dollars turn into projects as quickly as possible.
Now, building a bridge or a new airport terminal, uh, unlike some other policies is not something that happens the moment that it's signed off the way a tax credit could take effect in a matter of weeks. But we do think that there are steps that could help make it all happen more quickly.
Now we're about three fifths of the way through the bill. If you think of it that way, we're in year three of a five year bipartisan infrastructure bill, so we're trying to tear down some of the barriers and speed up that process, because I do sometimes worry about what a policy change would do to the availability of these transportation and infrastructure dollars that, uh, I think Americans are really counting on in their communities.
Mohsin: Secretary Buttigieg, if we end up with a Harris presidency, what Cabinet job would you like?
Buttigieg: Well, uh, if that happens, that'll be up to the new president. All I know is that I've got what feels to me right now to be the best job in the federal government, and I'm working hard at meeting the expectations of that job.
Mohsin: If you had another four years, what would you do?
Buttigieg: I'm really not allowing myself to speculate on that, especially because there's so much still to be done.
Even in this, the fourth year of President Biden's term, we've got uh, billions more in projects that we're working to select and announce. We're trying to help states and cities deliver the projects that we've already agreed to fund. And we're working on the regulatory side on these issues like consumer protection.
I think getting that Railway Safety Act passed through Congress that we've been calling for is a major piece of unfinished business that I'd like to see happen. I'm gonna do everything I can to help that happen. So, I’m determined to sprint through the tape and, uh, we'll see what the future holds after that.
Mohsin: It's hard not to notice that your policy work has gone beyond the typical boundaries of the Transportation department. So one example is that you've been vocal on childcare policy proposals. Is that an area of policy that you would like to be involved in?
Buttigieg: I'm certainly passionate about child care. I always believed in it intellectually, but had a whole new way of thinking about it after Chasten and I became parents to our son and daughter, our twins, just a little over three years ago.
Uh, I work on that, of course, within the job that I have on things like making sure vehicles and streets are safe and making sure you can sit next to your kid on a plane without having to pay extra for it, but certainly also feel strongly about our administration's push to make sure that we have things like paid family leave, something that we could probably have tomorrow if congressional Republicans would change their mind and support us on that.
Uh, and a number of other measures like the child tax credit that may be a little bit outside of my lane here at the USDOT, but I know what they're going to do to reduce poverty, to support families, and, uh, you know, whether I'm in government or in, uh, in some other life, uh, I'm gonna do whatever I can to push for those good policies.
Mohsin: There's so much talk about the future of the country and also the future of the Democratic Party. Should we expect that regardless of what happens and what job you might have the next four years, that you are going to remain as a key influencer and leader in the Democratic Party? You did run for president once before, maybe you'll do it again?
Buttigieg: Well, I'm always looking for some way or another to make myself useful. Right now, it's, uh, that's the job right in front of me, but, uh, I care a lot about policy. I care a lot about, uh, how families are going to do in this country. And I think our future depends on us being committed toward a long view about how some of the choices we make, whether it's how you design a bridge that's going to be around for a hundred years or how we invest in the affordability of raising, uh, kids who are just being born.
We take that long view. And, uh, I'm going to work toward that in whatever capacity I find myself in from one year to another.
Mohsin: So you have not ruled out another run?
Buttigieg: I haven't ruled anything in or out. I'm just trying to do my job right now.
Mohsin: All right. Thank you so much for your time.
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